Northern Sold
2:02 Tue Oct 11
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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Won one of the greatest Guinea fields ever didn't he Cough... Mill Reef and co?
I saw Frankel's last race at Ascot on Champions Day and got speaking to three blokes in the grandstand... one was an old boy of about 75 years old or so and got talking about the greats and where Frankel would match against them... he said the greatest he ever saw was the Brig' but felt that day at Ascot that Frankel had met his match with the conditions (Soft Heavy in places) and that old mud loving warrior Cirrus des Aigles... watched it with the 3 blokes and the ol' fella started actually crying as he honestly thought that he would never in his lifetime see another horse on par with the Brig... have to say of all the sport I have ever seen... Football... Rugby... Cricket... I have never heard a noise like the whole of that Grandstand shouting home Frankel... absolute magic time.
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Far Cough
9:08 Tue Oct 11
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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Brigadier Gerrard, anyone?
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icwhs
3:08 Tue Oct 11
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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NS
agree re the history, and the kick...
Still many a kid didn't get fed due to the cuntary that is fake, always has been a mugs game, always will be.
As my old man says, the last mug cunt, ain't even born..
I was underfed..
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Northern Sold
3:00 Tue Oct 11
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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icwhs....I used to feel like you... got the bug about 10 years ago now and absolutely love it ... i'm into more the history of the sport rather than the betting angle (altho still have a small flutter every weekend)... got to admit that it gets my blood pumping more watching a superb performance in a group 1 or a classic than watching football recently...
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icwhs
2:51 Tue Oct 11
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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Horse racing...
Bigger bollocks bluff than WWF
F
F
S
mugs game at best..pikeys at worst
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zico
2:46 Tue Oct 11
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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les marteaux 9:34 Mon Oct 10
Interesting article here says Red Rum carried top weight in three successive Nationals.
http://www.grand-national-guide.co.uk/history_red_rum.html
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boleynkid
9:50 Mon Oct 10
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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Zico
Red Rum won the Scottish National as well of course. Must be the only horse ever to have won races at 5f and 4 miles.
Some great names there mate and I love watching some of the old races on youtube, with the incomparable Peter O'Sullevan commentating, which take me back to my childhood. Horses like Sea Pigeon, Persian War, The Laird, What A Myth, Mill House etc.
To think at one stage that Aintree was in danger of closing. What a loss that would have been.
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boleynkid
9:41 Mon Oct 10
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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Far Cough - Geoff Lewis rode maill Reef apparently (must admit had long forgotten that). Completely by chance I was lucky to see him close up at the National Stud in Newmarket when his trainer Ian Balding turned up.
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les marteaux
9:34 Mon Oct 10
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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Reply zico 7:41 Mon Oct 10
Red Rum was such a poor horse between Nationals that he always finished up carrying a lot less weight than those who came in behind him. Crisp for example was carrying 23 lbs more than Red Rum when beaten by only half a length. It is supposed that 1lb is equal to 1 length over the derby distance on the flat.
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Far Cough
7:58 Mon Oct 10
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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Nijinsky and Mill Reef were my favourite flat horses, I think Piggott rode both?
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zico
7:41 Mon Oct 10
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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boleynkid 11:48 Mon Oct 10
Absolutely adored Red Rum as a kid and was devastated when he was pulled out of the 1978 National injured, although looking back it probably kept the Legend alive considering he might not even have finished.
Some great horses in those Nationals, Spanish Steps, L'escargot, Rag Trade, Churchtown Boy and that win over Crisp still astounds me when I see it on You Tube. Literally if the finish had been a yard earlier Crisp would have won.
I seem to have read somewhere that Red Rum wasn't overly successful in between Nationals and seemed to save himself for big races.
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neilalex
2:34 Mon Oct 10
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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Its never going to be something that can be decided scientifically, but ratings clearly favour horses who gallop opponents into the ground and win by several lengths, rather than those, like Dancing Brave, who just mow them down with pure speed in the end stages.
Dancing Brave could finish a Group 1 mile and half race in astonishing top class sprinter times over the final furlong. A bit like Usain Bolt doing nine seconds something after running 300m. Just a different way of winning.
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Northern Sold
2:28 Mon Oct 10
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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Didn't Piggott say that Frankel would have never lived with Sea Bird?
Surprisingly, the three best horses Piggott has seen include only one Derby winner and none that he rode. “Sea-Bird, Ribot and Frankel were the best – in that order,” he said. “I was beaten two lengths by Sea-Bird into second on Meadow Court in 1965 and Pat Glennon, his jockey, said before the race all he was worried about was being able to pull up the horse before the road [by the old parade ring]. In the race, he started pulling up about a furlong and a half out – that’s how good he was. Ribot was exceptional. He was unbeaten and won two Arcs. We all saw what Frankel did.”
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les marteaux
2:22 Mon Oct 10
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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The best flat horse over middle distance was called Sea Bird 2nd. who had the most devastating acceleration I have ever seen. Won the Derby and Arc in the mid sixties.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8w6l4dycjDE
In this race the jockey let him go too soon and because of the quality of the field the rest of the pack reduced his lead when his jockey let him loose again. It was later revealed he had an abscess in his mouth that caused him to veer to the left. in the last 200 metres
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boleynkid
11:48 Mon Oct 10
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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Nijinsky ridden by the genius that was Lester Piggott was another.
Red Rum in The National was unmissable (3 x 1st & 2 x 2nd - a record very unlikely to be matched/beaten) and the interesting thing about him was that his first win was on the flat at Aintree over 5f. Lester Piggott rode him a couple of times.
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neilalex
11:32 Sun Oct 9
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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Yes, certain horses do that. I was the same with Desert Orchid and Dancing Brave.
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Far Cough
11:28 Sun Oct 9
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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neil, Arkle was in my time but I remember a lot of people including myself that had only a passing interest in racing , were glued to the sets when Arkle was running
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neilalex
11:12 Sun Oct 9
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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I do get both sides to this argument, however I think Arkle was freakishly good although he was before my time.
The main line I take is through Mill House who looking at his races on youtube and the opposition he had certainly seems to be a similar horse and at least as good as Borough Hill Lad and Denman. Generally, he got murdered by Arkle, as good as he was.
The wild card for me is Kauto Star at the top of his game.He's the best NH horse I ever saw, however I think Arkle would always have too much for him, hypothetically.
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West Side Story
10:59 Sun Oct 9
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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Never heard of Flyingbolt until this thread.
In the same stable as Arkle and some people saying he was even better.
The trainer would never race them together like Denman and Kauto Star.
Anybody think Flyingbolt would have beaten Arkle?
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West Side Story
8:54 Sun Oct 9
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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Denman gave nearly 2 stone to What A Friend who won the Grade 1 Lexus Gold Cup in his next race.
I accept Arkle was the best. just not by the massive margin we are led to believe.
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Far Cough
8:49 Sun Oct 9
Re: Was Arkle overrated?
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Mill House, Stalbridge Colonist What a Myth
Yeah no strength in depth then
;-)
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